* Logging started Fri, 28 May 2004 07:00:13 +0000 @1085727615 -dircproxy- You connected @1085727616 -calvino.freenode.net- You joined the channel @1085727712 log rolled over... previous log is in http://www.gwydiondylan.org/~housel/irc/dylan-hc @1085727814 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1085739957 What was Andy doing to the project manager? Any changes in behavior or just a cleanup of the code? @1085743193 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@port-212-202-175-14.dynamic.qsc.de) joined the channel @1085745314 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@port-212-202-175-14.dynamic.qsc.de) joined the channel @1085747429 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> hi @1085747544 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@port-212-202-175-14.dynamic.qsc.de) joined the channel @1085747544 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-2 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1085747597 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-4 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1085748163 housel: that must be what happened. I did do a Remove Build Products. @1085748832 -calvino.freenode.net- carlgay_ (~chatzilla@h00a0c5e1f619.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined the channel @1085748924 I can't create a tag on the koala sources. CVS complains: Sorry, you can't tag a subdirectory in isolation. Tag the whole module instead. @1085748949 So, i tried tagging all of 'libraries' but it gives the same message. @1085753259 -calvino.freenode.net- hannes (hannes@cantor.gwydiondylan.org) joined the channel @1085753316 hi @1085755181 -calvino.freenode.net- jemfinch|lambda (~jfincher@wlan-be-140-254-233-124.osuweb.net) joined the channel @1085756041 -dircproxy- You connected @1085758041 I filed bug 7035 for the Remove Build Products problem @1085760689 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1085761512 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-2 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1085763029 -dircproxy- You connected @1085764502 -calvino.freenode.net- sprout (~Snak@drop242.drizzle.com) joined the channel @1085769350 -calvino.freenode.net- sprout (~Snak@drop242.drizzle.com) joined the channel @1085769350 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-2 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1085769350 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@port-212-202-175-14.dynamic.qsc.de) joined the channel @1085769350 -calvino.freenode.net- cpage (~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined the channel @1085769350 -calvino.freenode.net- bhoult (~Bruce_Hou@metnet.met.co.nz) joined the channel @1085769350 -calvino.freenode.net- oudeis (~oudeis@bzq-218-95-152.red.bezeqint.net) joined the channel @1085769350 -calvino.freenode.net- chandler (~chandler@chandler.registered) joined the channel @1085769350 -calvino.freenode.net- Riastradh (~riastradh@pool-151-203-222-80.bos.east.verizon.net) joined the channel @1085769350 -calvino.freenode.net- cgay (~cgay@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com) joined the channel @1085769350 -calvino.freenode.net- prom (~prom@217.13.206.33) joined the channel @1085769350 -calvino.freenode.net- ^self (~fn@66.209.66.105) joined the channel @1085769976 chandler: for linux or windows? sources or installer? @1085769990 windows, and installer or binary .zip (preferably latter) @1085770056 [chandler!~chandler@chandler.registered] ACTION would think there would be a directory or so @1085770061 housel just put up a new installer at http://www.gwydiondylan.org/~housel/fundev-snapshot.html @1085770103 is there a .zip by any chance? @1085770129 there's a zip, but the code is ever-so-slightly different @1085770139 [chandler!~chandler@chandler.registered] ACTION doesn't care :-) @1085770151 I've never played with it before; I won't notice the difference @1085770153 look in http://www.gwydiondylan.org/~housel/, it should be in the dir listing @1085770173 the 5/24 version was a .zip @1085770186 thanks! @1085770437 -calvino.freenode.net- oudeis_ (~irc@bzq-218-95-152.red.bezeqint.net) joined the channel @1085770443 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@194.95.203.210) joined the channel @1085770785 housel: i'm working on the new install script, planned changes are: 1. adding path modification 2. fixing file associations - it points to the default install dir, and there are problems with some icons; 3. putting the registry stuff, path etc under separate sections, so that user may skip whatever he/she/it doesn't want @1085770833 housel: 4. fixing the ununstaller - it doesn't delete 'Functional Objects' folder (a kind of conceptual problem with this install system) @1085770855 housel: i may need to parse install logs manually in order to fix that @1085770916 and adding an option 'just unzip' for people like chandler @1085771076 -calvino.freenode.net- lisppaste (~lisppaste@lamancha.opendarwin.org) joined the channel @1085771430 hey, what is fun-o gonna charge for now? ;-) @1085771465 heya channel. @1085771479 cgay: :-) @1085771493 [prom!~prom@217.13.206.33] ACTION is trying to compile GD with icc (the intel c++ compiler). @1085772030 -calvino.freenode.net- rhashem (~rhashem@dsl017-066-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined the channel @1085772562 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1085772661 -dircproxy- You connected @1085773928 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1085776215 -dircproxy- You connected @1085778047 -calvino.freenode.net- oudeis_ (~irc@bzq-218-95-152.red.bezeqint.net) joined the channel @1085793232 -calvino.freenode.net- cpage (~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined the channel @1085794042 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1085798293 -calvino.freenode.net- rhashem (~gtg990h@ip68-100-5-48.dc.dc.cox.net) joined the channel @1085798773 -dircproxy- You connected @1085798997 hey, does anybody know if d2c implements generic-function-methods on sealed methods? @1085799007 The DRM leaves it up to the implementation... @1085799415 I think it does @1085799491 excellent. I'm trying it on fundev now, but don't have a machine with d2c on it within reach @1085799521 oh, the new installer is really spiffy @1085805216 -calvino.freenode.net- jemfinch|lambda (~jfincher@acs-24-239-114-198.zoominternet.net) joined the channel @1085814163 Why do you need generic-function-methods to work on sealed generics? @1085817103 ...or sealed methods. @1085818982 -calvino.freenode.net- buggs (~noidentd@pD9E96097.dip.t-dialin.net) joined the channel @1085820366 commit by cpage to src: Bug: 7027 7028 @1085820367 Suppress fontification of interchange file headers. More importantly, this prevents header contents from interacting with fontification of the file body. @1085820367 Fontify type definition names (e.g., the "" in "define class ") with the font-lock-type-face instead of font-lock-function-name-face. @1085832705 -calvino.freenode.net- wm3 (~wm3@ZF129022.ppp.dion.ne.jp) joined the channel @1085839900 -calvino.freenode.net- carlgay_ (~chatzilla@h00a0c5e1f619.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined the channel @1085848928 -calvino.freenode.net- rhashem (~rhashem@dsl017-066-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined the channel @1085848972 cpage: to answer the question you posed yesterday about why I need to access the methods of sealed generics: @1085849017 In my copious minutes of free-time, I'm still trying to work on my C++ -> Dylan bindings generator @1085849057 in order to avoid copying every v-table for every class parsed, I'd like a way to know when methods get overridden @1085849117 so I don't need access to the method, just a simple question of "does this method contain any functions besides the original stub emitted by the generator" @1085849478 -calvino.freenode.net- cgay (~cgay@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com) joined the channel @1085850997 neat. i just joined #dylan and i'm not even in the office @1085853889 how do people get by without macros? @1085853916 especially in the languages that need that need them most (C++, Java) @1085854238 +1 @1085854266 rhashem: So, you're generating Dylan code, then optimizing, is that it? @1085854388 And do you mean "overridden" or "overload"? Non-virtual member functions can only be overloaded, and I wonder exactly how you'd translate them to Dylan, since they can vary in the number of required parameters. @1085854587 cpage: what's happening is that for each C++ virtual function, you get a dylan GF @1085854619 that GF could be sealed, at the programmer's discretion @1085854671 In fact, if the goal is simply to translate C++ to Dylan, wouldn't it always be sealed, since C++ doesn't have openness? @1085854682 the goal isn't to translate C++ to dylan @1085854695 its to generate Dylan bindings for C++ APIs @1085854731 it wouldn't necessarily be sealed, because the Dylan programmer could inherit from a C++ class and define methods for that @1085854754 but it could be sealed, if the dylan programmer doesn't want to define any methods for that GF outside the library @1085854798 Are you going to generate C++ code that exports C ABI functions for calling member functions? @1085854851 there will need to be some C stub code, but I was planning on seeing if I could call the C++ virtual functions directly from dylan code @1085854860 I have a decent understanding of the gcc v-table layout @1085856322 So, you don't mind tying it to gcc? Or are you going to use the latest stuff, which as I understand it is going to be part of the C++ standard. @1085856636 not for awhile @1085856642 it should be an easily-pluggable bit @1085856658 err, the new C++ stuff won't be out for years @1085856695 On x86, Linux, *BSD, and Windows all have pretty well-established C++ ABIs @1085856774 on platforms that don't have an established C++ ABI, C++ binaries are tied to one compiler anyway @1085856902 Well, the standard won't be finalized and published for a while, but my understanding is that the latest gcc supports what's supposed to be in the standard. @1085857082 I don't think so --- a lot of the standard hasn't been even worked out yet. They're projecting it as a 2006-2007 thing. There are some things like typeinfo that gcc does support already, but those are pretty minor @1085857118 Xtended Type Info would make things trivial, but GCC-XML has pretty good emulation of other compilers, so its not a big deal @1085857184 I'm just talking about name-mangling and v-table format. @1085857684 ah. I don't think that's getting standardized. ABI is up to the platform. Linux/x86 uses the Intel IA-64 ABI, which both Intel C++ and G++ supports. For now, that's the target @1085857748 well, I finally get to go home for the day @1085857749 bye @1085857772 -calvino.freenode.net- rhashem (~rhashem@dsl017-066-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) left the channel @1085868855 -calvino.freenode.net- andreas (andreas@cantor.gwydiondylan.org) joined the channel @1085868857 Re. @1085873070 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove_ (~pritlove@port-212-202-175-14.dynamic.qsc.de) joined the channel @1085873733 -calvino.freenode.net- brucehoult (~bruce@202-0-60-162.adsl.paradise.net.nz) joined the channel @1085886655 -calvino.freenode.net- brucehoult_ (~bruce@202-0-60-162.adsl.paradise.net.nz) joined the channel @1085887577 cantor is not responding for me @1085887583 I can ping it, but that's about it @1085887764 Same here. @1085887791 I used it sometime in the last couple of hours to do a CVS compare. @1085889536 -calvino.freenode.net- brucehoult_ (~bruce@202-0-45-47.adsl.paradise.net.nz) joined the channel @1085889754 sh*t .. the load average is 20!! @1085890351 ok, I've killed everything owned by "tinderbox" and the swapper has stopped and the load average is dropping nicely @1085890751 ok, I think it's back to normal... @1085890851 good morning @1085890877 morning @1085890898 is mr.housel here? @1085890923 not recently @1085891124 i've fixed the install script a bit, and am putting it under oudeis.maclisp.org/fundev-install.zip @1085891465 what's housel's email? @1085891958 brucehoult: i'll be absent for 2 days, if housel wants to release another snapshot in the meantime it is preferable that he'll use the new installer script as it fixes a few things @1085894538 I'm sure he'll read this @1085901631 -calvino.freenode.net- buggs^z (~noidentd@pD9E95672.dip.t-dialin.net) joined the channel @1085909719 -calvino.freenode.net- robmyers (~robmyers@spc1-pete2-5-0-cust77.lond.broadband.ntl.com) joined the channel @1085909720 re @1085910782 -calvino.freenode.net- buggs^z (~noidentd@pD9E97BEE.dip.t-dialin.net) joined the channel @1085914681 commit by cpage to src: Bug: 7016 @1085914681 Added a production to allow a type name token for the name of a @1085914681 struct/union member in addition to an identifier. This is in line with @1085914681 the ANSI C grammar found in The Annotated ANSI C Standard, and allows @1085914681 <...> @1085953172 -calvino.freenode.net- bhoult (~Bruce_Hou@metnet.met.co.nz) joined the channel @1085954403 -calvino.freenode.net- cgay_ (~cgay@h00a0c5e1f619.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined the channel @1085961794 commit by cpage to src: Bug: 7036 @1085961795 Changed the Melange framework headers search algorithm so that it @1085961795 automatically locates top-level frameworks in the frameworks include @1085961795 path, and child frameworks within parent frameworks already seen, @1085961795 <...> @1085962840 Okay, with my recent changes to Melange I'm now ready to start writing Carbon interface definitions. @1085963030 Interestingly, my most recent commit didn't seem to get posted here by CIA, although the CIA log page shows it. @1085963385 Has anybody tried using Melange's "-m" option? It doesn't work for me. It writes an empty module file. @1085963998 [Looks at source code.] D'oh! The default case, where Melange writes glue for both Mindy and d2c, is buggy. @1085964012 I guess that's not used normally. @1085968245 -calvino.freenode.net- cpage (~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) left the channel @1085968406 -calvino.freenode.net- cpage (~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined the channel @1085989463 -calvino.freenode.net- brucehoult (~bruce@202-0-61-57.adsl.paradise.net.nz) joined the channel @1085993872 -calvino.freenode.net- brucehoult_ (~bruce@202.0.59.197) joined the channel @1085997668 Morning! @1085999726 Morning @1086004019 -calvino.freenode.net- buggs (~noidentd@pD9E95A03.dip.t-dialin.net) joined the channel @1086004204 -calvino.freenode.net- andreas (andreas@cantor.gwydiondylan.org) joined the channel @1086004204 -calvino.freenode.net- oudeis_ (~irc@bzq-218-95-152.red.bezeqint.net) joined the channel @1086004204 -calvino.freenode.net- Riastradh (~riastradh@pool-151-203-222-80.bos.east.verizon.net) joined the channel @1086004204 -calvino.freenode.net- ^self (~fn@66.209.66.105) joined the channel @1086004204 -calvino.freenode.net- prom (~prom@217.13.206.33) joined the channel @1086004217 Evening! @1086005000 -calvino.freenode.net- cpage (~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined the channel @1086005032 -calvino.freenode.net- Riastradh (~riastradh@pool-151-203-222-80.bos.east.verizon.net) joined the channel @1086005176 -calvino.freenode.net- prom (~prom@217.13.206.33) joined the channel @1086005176 -calvino.freenode.net- ^self (~fn@66.209.66.105) joined the channel @1086005176 -calvino.freenode.net- oudeis_ (~irc@bzq-218-95-152.red.bezeqint.net) joined the channel @1086005176 -calvino.freenode.net- andreas (andreas@cantor.gwydiondylan.org) joined the channel @1086014002 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> this is cool: http://users.rcn.com/python/download/Descriptor.htm @1086015353 -calvino.freenode.net- Riastrad1 (~riastradh@pool-141-154-52-5.bos.east.verizon.net) joined the channel @1086017428 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-3 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1086021852 -calvino.freenode.net- cgay (~cgay@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com) joined the channel @1086029576 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> http://www.dieselsweeties.com/archive.php?s=963 @1086045163 [housel!housel@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION is back from two days camping in the mountains @1086045626 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1086046158 -dircproxy- You connected @1086049871 commit by housel to fundev: Bug: 6971 @1086049872 Move the "Environment Options..." menu item to the "Tools" menu, instead @1086049872 of putting it by itself in the "Options" menu. @1086055993 -calvino.freenode.net- buggs (~noidentd@pD9E95A03.dip.t-dialin.net) joined the channel @1086061542 -calvino.freenode.net- badon (KC7YCL@skoubye.dsl.xmission.com) joined the channel @1086061553 [badon!KC7YCL@skoubye.dsl.xmission.com] ACTION lurks @1086061959 hello lurker @1086062507 howdy @1086062515 I'm makin' food @1086062522 and reading about programming @1086062527 (languages, et al) @1086063277 hi badon @1086063289 hi carl @1086063310 hi peter, how's it going? @1086063317 hi cgay @1086063353 not bad, trying to figure out why the gnu linker doesn't work @1086063373 badon, are you new to #dylan? never seen you here before @1086063376 and committing my as-yet uncommitted patches @1086063409 cgay: yep, brand-spankin' new @1086063431 how did you hear about dylan? @1086063462 accidentally while perusing google @1086063491 then, usenet, and today, I saw it mentioned in an old slashdot post @1086063497 so, I decided to have a look here @1086063517 good ol' google @1086063570 so poo and stuff @1086063581 dylan > C++ ? @1086063598 #t @1086063636 ? @1086063639 http://homepage.mac.com/chrispage/iblog/index.html @1086063646 looking @1086063648 #T is the Dylan canonical true constant. @1086063747 hmm... 1 usually works for me @1086063780 1 is true in Dylan, but then so is 0 @1086063791 only #f is false @1086063805 http://www.bash.org/?10958 @1086063817 That's why I said 'canonical.' @1086063829 how can that BE? I've decided dylan sucks @1086063834 ;) @1086063906 what's yer fave? @1086063966 perhaps we can work on converting you :) @1086063984 one sec @1086064426 ok back @1086064431 begin the conversion process @1086064452 Does dylan work with c/c++? @1086064475 What do you mean 'work with?' @1086064488 well, in any sense. @1086064495 wrappers, libs, whatever @1086064528 hmm, Riastradh, your nick looks familiar @1086064543 I think I saw it on the web somewhere @1086064548 The only channel we're both in is #scheme. @1086064555 ah, k @1086064583 My nick is all over the web, either in references to me or in Gaelic-related texts that are completely unrelated to me. @1086064596 ah, it's from the #scheme webpage @1086064673 i don't know any details about C/C++ integration, but there is a C FFI in Functional Developer and Gwydion Dylan compiles to C, so integration is very good there i believe. @1086064741 oh, it compiles to C, and then compiles the C? @1086064743 That's funky @1086064753 it's a common trick @1086064760 yeah,chicken does it @1086064784 Well, that'd make dylan accessible to C/C++ @1086064793 FFI? @1086064798 unfortunately it leaves us at the mercy of the gcc developers @1086064802 Foreign Function Interface @1086064808 k @1086064874 what do you mean about GCC? @1086064884 what sorts of troubles does that cause? @1086064930 when gcc has bugs, so do we @1086065158 k @1086065397 the problem with interfacing to C++ is that there is no standard for things such as vtable layout or name mangling in C++ @1086065422 *nothing* can interface to arbitrary C++ compilers, unless it produces C++ itself @1086065483 I did manage to persuade Felix to modify Chicken's code generation to be C++ compatible, so I could at least do "inline C++" in Scheme. He's since taken it further. @1086065515 For example, if I want to use a C/C++ lib with dylan, is there a way to do it that's not terribly difficult or expensive, cpu wise? @1086065517 I needed that for my job. I haven't actally needed it for what I use Dylan for yet :-) @1086065526 if it's C it's easy @1086065555 if its implemented in C++ but exports an ANSI C interface then it's easy @1086065575 hmm....ok @1086065588 So, why the mess with compiling to C? @1086065605 it gets you a new language quickly I suppose.... @1086065609 we just haven't had time to write a native backend yet @1086065615 ok @1086065620 that's what I suspected @1086065626 if it's arbitrary C++ then it's very painful to interface to from *any* language, whether you're talking C or Perl or whatever @1086065638 yeah @1086065650 unless swig supports it @1086065658 compiling to C means we work on x86, PowerPC, SPARC, HPPA, ... @1086065665 yep @1086065684 Are there plans for a C-- back end? @1086065710 sort of... gabor and I are at least keeping an eye on c-- @1086065728 --? @1086065738 http://www.cminusminus.org/ @1086065743 looking @1086065782 it's a C-inspired language designed for use as a backend language, in the same way we're currently using C @1086065827 It is designed specifically to be a portable assembly language, unlike C, and so it has many fewer of the shortcomings that C has when used as a portable assembly language. @1086065944 well put @1086065978 yeah, that looks useful @1086065984 as a general tool for new languages @1086066352 OK, so dylan is targeted as a replacement for C/C++ then? @1086066380 pretty much... a general-purpose application development language @1086066742 woo hoo. got virtual hosts basically workin' @1086066767 nifty! @1086066777 g'night all @1086066783 'night @1086066794 [badon!KC7YCL@skoubye.dsl.xmission.com] ACTION lurks @1086067075 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1086067357 -dircproxy- You connected @1086070186 Morning! @1086071649 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-2 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1086075060 -calvino.freenode.net- brucehoult (~bruce@202.0.59.212) joined the channel @1086077547 Re. @1086083509 commit by cpage to src: Bug: 7037 7038 @1086083511 Added a --defines option to show the default C preprocessor @1086083512 definitions; they are no longer shown as part of --help. @1086083514 <...> @1086084246 -calvino.freenode.net- brucehoult (~bruce@202-0-45-70.adsl.paradise.net.nz) joined the channel @1086086601 Hi Bruce! Is that you, or just a script reconnecting? :) @1086086616 it's a bot @1086086628 Too bad... @1086086632 yeah @1086086637 how goes it? @1086086663 Vincent will stay with my parents for the summer. So I'll have time this weekend. @1086086671 I've created a directory in cvs for the contest @1086086683 at the moment there's a readme @1086086704 I'm also playing games with the user/group of the directory @1086086715 don't want a repeat of 2002 @1086086730 I see. Do we have a canonical bug to submit against? @1086086749 job: icfp @1086086803 commit by andreas to examples: job: icfp @1086086803 Dangerous territory there. :) @1086086813 Alex & Keith & Chris & I had lunch today @1086086821 Hey, no error messages during commit, and CIA works too! @1086086844 Do you have a place to hack? VU? @1086086848 I think we're ready to go @1086086856 we're going to start out at my place @1086086871 might use a bunch of machines at VUW if necesary @1086086907 or *maybe* if we really really need it and ask really really nicely at the other place @1086086914 they're really busy with I Robot at the moment @1086086925 if it was the end of June we could have 3000+ machines @1086086941 Which would gve a certain edge, for sure. @1086086951 BTW: Which employer did you end up? @1086086958 Metservice @1086086971 into my 2nd week @1086087011 So you're responsible for global warming now? :) @1086087027 we just put XCode 1.2 onto the Macs there, and it comes with a hacked version of distcc that uses Rendevous to find distcc servers @1086087043 Cool. @1086087058 there are only 3 people with dual 2 GHz G5's, but that's enough to help :) @1086087075 ... especially if you're the guy who only has a G4 under his desk :-) @1086087230 blame Alex for not being able to spell :-) @1086087244 [andreas!andreas@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION talks to the phone company, hoping they will restore his DSL service until the weekend. @1086087262 you mean "before"? @1086087271 I do. :) @1086087398 hi @1086087411 Hi Hannes! @1086087545 -calvino.freenode.net- gabor (root@cantor.gwydiondylan.org) joined the channel @1086087555 hi andreas @1086087567 Hi Gabor! @1086087574 helloo @1086087623 Gabor! @1086087648 [gabor!root@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION made the unpleasant discovery (again) that problems multiply when you return from vacation :-( @1086087656 hi bruce! @1086087702 Don't you have any colleagues? :) @1086087703 andreas: thanks for correcting _that_ typo! :-) @1086087717 Good Greif! @1086087741 andreas: yes, they worked along nicely, but we have too many testers :-) @1086087771 rate of bugs found < rate of bugs fixed ? @1086087780 No, > @1086087793 hi gabor @1086087803 you're having trouble with your inequalities today! @1086087810 >, but we had heaps of features finished up lately @1086087814 < and >. And "until" and "before" @1086087836 Blame the heat. Summer actually started this weekend. @1086087859 it's warm here tonight. 14.3 at 11pm @1086087876 also, many of the study MRs got a thorough look by now, which often implies bugfixes that need to be done @1086087880 typical for cloudy nights, actually. clear ones are 7 - 8 @1086087925 [gabor!root@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION goes implementing, syl @1086087983 [andreas!andreas@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION winks. @1086088003 Ok, I have some work to do too. Later! @1086088016 and I'm off to bed shortly @1086088024 Night! @1086088954 -calvino.freenode.net- oudeis (~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il) joined the channel @1086089934 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> hmm. dylan doesn't like sqrt(-1); @1086089935 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> as in @1086089936 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> let i = -1; @1086089936 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> let s = sqrt(i); @1086089960 Why would it like that? @1086089971 we don't do complex numbers @1086090014 cpage: It would if d2c supported complex numbers. :-) @1086090016 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> why don't we do complex numbers? @1086090068 probably because no one has implemented them? @1086090077 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> good answer! @1086090086 which is proabbly because they're not easy to do in a way that satisfies everyone @1086090108 Mathematically, syntactically, ...? @1086090113 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> in d2c, the sqrt method seems to call the c sqrtf() @1086090117 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> function @1086090123 yep @1086090164 if you want a full mathematically corrct numeric tower then use CL @1086090185 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> or fix dylan? heh. @1086090186 or one of the better Schemes @1086090208 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> yeah, i use scheme48 and it has complex numbers. @1086090212 different people would have different opinions on what was "fixed" @1086090260 Should the supplied sqrt methods specialize only on positive numbers? @1086090448 -calvino.freenode.net- buggs^z (~noidentd@pD9E95B6C.dip.t-dialin.net) joined the channel @1086090472 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> a complex type will need to be added to "fix" sqrt for negative numbers. @1086090487 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> which probably implies fixing up sin, cos, etc to work on complex numbers. @1086090512 which means that either sqrt always returns complex, or else it returns different types depending on the argument @1086090528 .. which makes it really hard to generate efficient code, either way @1086090544 where "efficient" means: competes with C and FORTRAN @1086090608 Doesn't method dispatch optimization take care of that? The result type should be deterministic based upon the input args, no? @1086090616 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> i thought cmucl or sbcl were pretty efficient with floats. can't we steal their code? @1086090634 how @1086090654 method foo(n) sqrt(n) end @1086090659 what's the return type? @1086090675 make it "n :: ". Still doesn't help with the return type @1086090687 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> hmm. @1086090688 Either you can optimize that or you can't. Adding support for complex doesn't alter the situation. Does it? @1086090779 You'd have to use dispatch optimization and/or inlining to figure out the method of sqrt, even if all you support are single and double floats. Or am I missing something? @1086090858 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> what does fd do? that's closer to home than sbcl @1086090860 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> or cmucl @1086091443 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> heh. neither smalltalk nor goo handle (sqrt -1) @1086091490 mathematically sqrt is not defined for negative reals @1086091570 it can be interpreted as a relation with two solutions (+-i*sqrt(abs(r))), though @1086091645 (make that +- to conjugate complex) @1086091713 in my opinion sqrt should signal a for negative values @1086091818 Wouldn't it be better to specialize it on positive values so the compiler could complain? @1086091906 Anybody here used Melange? @1086091981 Melange produces Dylan glue for every definition in a header file *and* for every definition used by those definitions. This is problematic because it means, for example, that the Mac OS type Boolean gets defined in every interface. @1086092038 Is there a way to tell Melange not to emit FFI code for every referenced item? @1086092134 [cpage!~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] ACTION is up late tonight/this morning. Good night! @1086092165 -calvino.freenode.net- badon (KC7YCL@skoubye.dsl.xmission.com) joined the channel @1086092297 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> night @1086092325 cpage: night @1086092332 badon: hi @1086092471 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-2 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1086092579 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> hmm. pydoc raise works for me. @1086092602 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> ...on debian. but not freebsd. @1086092637 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> well, you'd hardly impress members of the opposite sex with pydoc. @1086092671 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> and, of course, #dylan isn't #mnet. sigh. @1086093313 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> it will? i didn't know that. @1086093421 <^self!~fn@66.209.66.105> argh @1086094134 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@194.95.203.174) joined the channel @1086101213 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@194.95.203.174) joined the channel @1086101626 -calvino.freenode.net- lisppaste (~lisppaste@common-lisp.net) joined the channel @1086103846 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1086106775 -dircproxy- You connected @1086106809 re @1086106963 hi peter! @1086107029 hey gabor @1086107058 looks like you are getting along with OD nicely! @1086107089 we're making some good progress @1086107123 lots of old bugs to go through and evaluate @1086107142 after leaving the initial windows release behind, could you look into the subclass on linux? @1086107188 sure @1086107204 then I could possibly start building on cantor with the gdb/mi stuff @1086107210 yes @1086107232 it would be nice if we could get the ppc backend working, so maybe you could build on MacOS too @1086107251 thanks! (it is not urgent, though, this w/e I am committed with ICFP) @1086107273 that would be great, yes @1086107333 I have a hard time getting into the contest mindset, so I'll sit out the contest on the sidelines, and help out with compiler/core library support if needed @1086107900 [prom!~prom@217.13.206.33] ACTION thinks the c-backend might be a better choice since cantor wont be there for long and the only replacement in sight is a sun machine with ultrasparc CPUs ;) @1086108356 true enough @1086108516 also, the C-backend MIGHT produce better code with gcc. @1086108539 and it would ease porting. @1086109017 I wonder about emitting "asm" where finer control is desired in the C backend. @1086109073 that might be useful for things like retrieving the carry bit @1086109222 [housel!housel@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION laments the fact that gcc's asm statement doesn't parse the included instructions, and thus requires all sorts of error-prone annotations @1086109325 the apple guys wanted to change that, but it was basically turned down. They might produce another attempt, though @1086109369 they have my vote @1086109435 at work I recently converted a pile of ARM embedded code from ARM CC (which parses asm statements) to gcc 3.x @1086109852 -calvino.freenode.net- sprout (~Snak@drop242.drizzle.com) joined the channel @1086109873 hi sprout @1086109890 morning gabor @1086110165 OK, what's the licensing culture around dylan like? I really hate the GPL, but BSD'ish things suit me better.... @1086110213 Here's my take on things - http://www.zesiger.com/license/ @1086110221 Gwydion has a BSDish license @1086110243 ah, fantastuc @1086110244 ic @1086110252 FunDev is dual-licensed under the LGPL and a Mozilla-like license @1086110330 I just hate the people who say "Business is bad, communism is good" @1086111031 housel: LGPL or a clarified LGPL? IIRC the LGPL is /very/ hand-wavy about what constitutes linking, to the point that Franz wrote the Lisp LGPL (clarified for dynamic languages) @1086111206 straight LGPL... linking is a lot more clearly-defined in Dylan than in Lisp @1086111333 though strictly speaking when using the LGPL terms, one should probably compile in "loose" mode @1086111403 ok :-) @1086111767 -calvino.freenode.net- cpage (~Chris@charger.intuit.com) joined the channel @1086112634 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@port-212-202-175-14.dynamic.qsc.de) joined the channel @1086113056 inline asm doesnt do the trick in many cases... @1086113099 c misses several important things. like add-with-carry, proper union initialization.... @1086113101 housel: http://www.gwydiondylan.org/~housel/fundev-snapshot.html ---> what about providing MD5sums? @1086113159 gabor: the md5sums and the exe files are both provided on cantor. as long as its not gpg signing i dont think its worth caring about. @1086113189 gabor: cantor is insecure as hell. this will be fixed on the new box. @1086113281 (i will have the box in a few days. itll be installed within the next month or so. we have to bring the machine from berlin to nuremberg...) @1086113499 badon: my opinion about licenses: GPL sucks, LGPL sucks less, BSD is great. @1086113795 prom: awesome. @1086113823 I think the BSD license is the most appealing, from my perspective @1086113878 badon: i guess i could tell you the details... but i guess it will just be just yet another combination of different sub-opinions on licenses you will find everywhere out there. @1086113887 yeah @1086113905 I think they all have their purposes, I just hate it when everyone chooses the GPL. @1086113928 I think this license is the least "special purpose" - http://www.zesiger.com/license/ @1086113940 badon: and BSD suits most... @1086113945 It seems to be the happy medium that accommodates everyone @1086113956 prom: yeah, BSD is a good one @1086113968 badon: GPL is really bad. LGPL is ok. at least everybody can use the software... @1086113972 I'll feel comfortable getting involved with anything that's BSD @1086114065 badon: but LGPL seems to be ok for me only because you dont want to extend most of the packages out there because they are... well.... dirty c code ;) @1086114104 yeah @1086114326 LGPL is bad in practice in some situations, because its wording is very handwavy @1086114453 handwavy? @1086115040 The Zesiger license seems too dependent upon a particular corporation. I think the license is basically okay, but I wouldn't use it unless it were defined and arbitrated by a non-profit organization with public board members. @1086115074 cpage: agreed, it needs an independent foundation. @1086115268 cpage: I wrote that license, and I'll talk to some people and see if we can take some steps to move it away from the company. @1086115664 BTW, "rediculous" is misspelled on the Zesiger license page. @1086115673 where? @1086115686 I'm anal about that stuff @1086115926 Well, "ridiculous" is misspelled. ;-) @1086115938 ri? @1086115940 looking... @1086115971 It's in the Q&A section. @1086115986 which part? :) @1086115988 Three times, in fact. @1086116028 I see three usages of the word, and they're all spelled right...right? @1086116061 they're all spelled redi. should be ridi @1086116074 oh? @1086116078 looking... @1086116117 Just think "ridicule." You wouldn't spell that "redicule." @1086116137 yeah, you're right. @1086116153 I'm a bit of a word-guru, I can't believe I didn't know how to spell that :)( @1086116170 thanks for pointing it out @1086116179 quick, how do you spell tendinitis? @1086116186 [cpage!~Chris@charger.intuit.com] ACTION only started spelling ridiculous correctly on a consistently basis sometime in the past few months. @1086116186 tendonitis @1086116191 heh @1086116204 [cpage!~Chris@charger.intuit.com] ACTION still has a way to go with grammar, though. @1086116212 For YEARS I've been spelling it rediculous, and NO ONE's ever called it wrong. @1086116358 OK, fixed @1086116425 It helps that Mac OS X has a system-wide spelling checker and most apps support it. @1086116452 I never use spell checkers. @1086116468 You don't say? ;-) @1086116501 I told my elementary school teachers they can keep their stupid spell checkers. I always had less errors in my work that people who used them. mostly because of the variations on the word 'their' @1086116505 I'm just always correct in my speling. @1086116509 badon, _fewer_ errors. @1086116517 Riastradh: shuttup @1086116519 :) @1086116526 And _than_ people who used them, not _that_! @1086116543 yeah, and I didnt capitaloze mostly @1086116550 :) @1086116550 No wonder spell chequers didn't help you. @1086116559 And yor mising a period at the end @1086116564 IRC is forgiveable @1086116564 Yor? @1086116577 You're @1086116577 Indeed. @1086116607 heh, felix on EFnet goes around chans and corrects people all day long - he's banned from a bunch of them, haha. @1086116615 But none of that's important, anyway. What's important is whether you use apostrophes correctly. @1086116630 thats improtant? @1086116636 poo @1086116661 http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif @1086116676 +1 @1086116789 -calvino.freenode.net- cpage_ (~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined the channel @1086117772 +2 @1086117799 (analogous to 'me 3') @1086117836 anywho, i wish Angry Flower would do a bit on then/than @1086117848 I believe he did. @1086117853 Although I'm not sure. @1086119176 Riastradh: gud lnk! phaps he will do 1 4 ppl who cant b bothered 2 learn proppr English . @1086119937 English is almost by definition improper. @1086120839 yes... let's use Loglan instead @1086120981 -calvino.freenode.net- lisppaste (~lisppaste@common-lisp.net) joined the channel @1086133379 [housel!housel@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION just posted a reply to cpage's c.l.d article @1086133951 [cpage!~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] ACTION just read housel's reply :-) @1086134009 [cpage!~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] ACTION is looking at the c-to-dylan name mapper; the user's guide didn't lead him to believe that would do anything useful @1086134073 that's the one I usually use @1086134091 BTW, it sorta seems to me there ought to be a way to pass parameters to the name mappers. Seems a shame to have to specify a completely different mapper for smaller variations. @1086134191 I just used c-to-dylan and I see it omits enum prefixes. However, the user's guide didn't mention this difference from the others. @1086134231 Also, it's weird that it inserts hyphens but leaves capital letters, and it's especially weird how it renames constants using the common "k" prefix: @1086134247 kCurrentProcess => $k-Current-Process @1086134251 it says that it (and minimal-name-mapping) omit the struct name, and melange treats enums and structs almost identically @1086134266 OIC. That wasn't clear to me. @1086134317 you'd like a style that drops the k in Apple-style constant names? @1086134330 Yes. The k should be replaced with $. @1086134343 [housel!housel@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION checks the Apple Dylan manuals to see if Creole could do that @1086134349 Or, it shouldn't hyphenate the name. @1086134374 I've been intending to look at the interfaces generated in Apple Dylan, but it requires booting in Mac OS 9 and I haven't had a good time to do that yet. @1086134382 if you don't want hyphens you can use minimal-name-mapping @1086134516 Apple Dylan had a MacApp-to-Dylan name mapper @1086134545 Well, I'd either like lower case, hyphenated names to match Dylan conventions, or names that closely match Apple's documentation, e.g.: @1086134585 that removed initial T in types, initial k in constants, f in struct fields @1086134613 GetCurrentProcess, $kCurrentProcess or get-current-process, $current-process @1086134632 their examples: @1086134642 SampleFunction => Sample-Function @1086134651 TSampleType => @1086134662 kSampleConstant => $Sample-Constant @1086134677 fSampleField => get-Sample-Field @1086134738 I guess the answer is that I should consider implementing a name mapper that works well with Apple naming conventions. @1086134752 So that's what Apple's interfaces looked like? Interesting. @1086134782 they also had C-to-Dylan and minimal-name-mapping identical to what melange does now @1086134796 BTW, the existing, hand-built Carbon interfaces use a "-value" suffix instead of a "get-" prefix. @1086134836 get-Sample-Field := foo; // seems a little weird to me. @1086134849 that's probably inspired by the C-FFI code used by the DUIM ports @1086134863 yes, I agree @1086135046 I'll consider implementing a name mapper like MacApp-to-Dylan (although the name is probably archaic these days.) @1086135112 I have several questions about the intended use of Melange and what its output should be like. @1086135179 Putting aside the naming issues, one thing seems to be a problem to me is that Melange emits definitions referenced by the "target" header. @1086135215 I don't see a way to convince it wholesale that referenced names will be imported. @1086135234 It seems to require individually excluding specific header files or names. @1086135271 equate: { "char *" => } for instance @1086135276 e.g., every Apple header indirectly uses "Boolean". @1086135311 Is it intended that interfaces should have one module per header? @1086135313 I strongly recommend using explicit import: { ... } @1086135366 that's entirely up to whoever does the wrapping @1086135409 Well, it seems to me that if I'm going to generate Carbon interfaces, there should be one module that exports the Dylan equivalents of OSType and Boolean, for example. @1086135433 yes, that makes sense @1086135447 Is there any reason there shouldn't be a way to have Melange only emit definitions for names directly declared in the target header? @1086135496 Perhaps I'm thinking this is all supposed to be more automated than it really can be. @1086135541 If new headers are released with new names, should it require updating an .intr file? @1086135571 in my opinion, yes, since you're going to have to add them to the module definition anyway @1086135590 Not if you have Melange generate the module definition. @1086135603 that's a relatively new feature @1086135607 Ah. @1086135629 I thought I remembered Apple Dylan requiring a manually-created module definition. @1086135655 yes, it probably did @1086135697 ...which seemed ridiculously tedious to me. Perhaps it's not that big of a deal after the initial creation. @1086135753 in my experience, relying on import: all has caused a lot of problems @1086135772 especially with different library versions, Linux vs. FreeBSD vs. Solaris, etc. @1086135780 I think the ideal would be that you just write an interface definition that says how to map things, and then run Melange again when new headers are released. Do you think that's not practical? @1086135809 What sort of problems? @1086135885 one example is inadvertently importing "select", which fails to compile because select is already a statement macro @1086135939 Why not just resolve the collisions as they're encountered? (As opposed to explicitly importing every name.) @1086136005 because you'll have different conflicts on every platform... better to start with a minimal import and add to it as necessary @1086136046 Oh, you mean when you're writing interfaces for cross-platform headers like, say, OpenGL? That makes sense. @1086136107 also, with explicit imports you can stick to wrapping the published APIs, and won't end up inadvertently including internal functions @1086136142 Does it ever happen that internal functions are in headers? @1086136183 Still, it might be useful if there were an automated way to generate the import list and only require you to pare it down when initially creating an interface definition. Carbon has thousands (tens of thousands?) of declarations. @1086136246 If I use explicit import will Melange still emit referenced names? @1086136254 yes @1086136256 (I couldn't figure this out from the documentation.) @1086136342 for Creole I'm considering having something like "define C-interface-module" which is a combined "define module" and "define interface" @1086136350 So what's the expected way to resolve the situation where, say, multiple headers refer to "struct Point {int x; int y;}", which is defined in a shared header? @1086136383 For Creole? @1086136404 sorry, I mean Collage @1086136430 it's a little late to do anything to Creole @1086136436 heh @1086136448 depends on how you do your interfaces @1086136459 It sounds like Melange is already nearly the equivalent of Creole, anyway. @1086136518 Well, how do I go about defining an interface for a header that refers to Point, and have Point defined and exported by the interface for whatever header declares it? @1086136524 you might do the whole wrapper in a single implementation-module, in which case you could #include { "foo-common.h", "foo-a.h", "foo-b.h", "foo-c.h" } @1086136543 For Carbon that would mean dozens (hundreds?) of header files. @1086136574 there's no overarching "Carbon.h" file that recursively includes them all? @1086136611 There is, but my point is that'd make for a "huge" interface. @1086136623 I'm not sure whether it's best to have a carbon library with separate modules for each header, or one module. @1086136650 What about typical C headers that include , though? @1086136683 that makes import: all-recursive dangerous @1086136689 [cpage!~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] ACTION is trying to grok melange @1086136733 What makes "import: all-recursive" dangerous? @1086136757 Anyway, you've convinced me explicit imports is the way to go. @1086136760 I would have one "define module" for each header, which "create"s each exported name, then import all of those into a blah-internals module that contains the "define interface" @1086136775 Ah. @1086137795 I guess it's worth noting that that style wouldn't fit very well into my proposed "define C-interface-module" @1086138053 I wonder what Apple Dylan's interfaces look like. @1086138091 I tried to take a look yesterday only to be thwarted by source databases. First thing we do after the revolution: Standardize a source database format. @1086138114 the manuals were in PDF on the CD, you could read that @1086138126 First thing I do once I boot into 9: Export all of the Apple Dylan sources to interchange files. @1086138181 BTW, I'm unclear on the difference between "map" and "equate". The names seem a little indistinct to me, and the documentation didn't help straighten me out. @1086138200 Ah, good point. The manuals may be enough for now. @1086138240 map: "melange, when you do a mapping for Q, call it q @1086138262 equate: assume a pre-existing mapping for Q called q @1086138297 map just affects the emitted name? @1086138328 I think so, don't quote me on that @1086138333 The user guide refers to them as "low-level" and "high-level." @1086138398 that is confusing @1086138764 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1086139628 Another thing comes to mind: Most Mac APIs return an error result and use output args for other results. I can tell Melange to use multiple values to turn output args into results, but it's a little awkward to have the error result there. @1086139668 I wonder whether it would make sense to have a way to change the order of results, or even have Melange emit code that checks the error result and signals exceptions as appropriate. @1086139692 Or is this the type of thing that's supposed to be done in a wrapper around the generated interfaces? @1086139777 I'd say it should be something that's supposed to be done in the wrapper. @1086139787 When you're talking thousands of APIs, automating this is important, but how much should be Melange's job and how much should be provided some other way? @1086139847 Actually, no: you should be able to define Melange macros or something that would do this junk for you. @1086139958 Speaking of macros, is it safe to assume that it would be entirely desirable to define -definer macros to wrap up the various definitions a single C definition generates, and have Melange (or whatever the tool of the future is) emit macro calls instead of individual definitions? @1086140041 e.g., c-struct-definer, c-enum-definer, c-variable-definer, etc. @1086140121 I guess it depends on whether the generated code is meant for human consumption. @1086141898 [bhoult!~Bruce_Hou@metnet.met.co.nz] ACTION doesn't think that's *quite* what "map" and "equate" mean. @1086142066 "equate" is like C++'s reinterpret_cast. It means "take the external bag of bits and use THIS Dylan type to interpret them" @1086142134 "map" is like C++'s static_cast. It means "convert the special type you got from 'equate' and use as() to turn it into a more conventional Dylan value for the user" @1086142153 ... and the reverse on output @1086142204 So, the obvious example is equate'ing char* to a special class that knows about null termination, and then map'ing it into a regular Dylan @1086142258 or the same for C++ bool -> Dylan to Dylan @1086143879 Okay, that makes sense. Thanks. @1086148335 -dircproxy- You connected @1086149755 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-2 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1086151624 gwydion and harlequin support using existing C++ libraries? @1086151628 Is this true? @1086151635 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=dylan+c%2B%2B+replace+OR+replacement+OR+better+OR+best&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=bruce-2706992114560001%40bruce.bgh&rnum=10 @1086153200 anyone awake? @1086153583 -calvino.freenode.net- rourea (~chatzilla@ACC264E8.ipt.aol.com) joined the channel @1086156742 C, yes; C++ requires that you wrap in C first @1086157653 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@port-212-202-175-14.dynamic.qsc.de) joined the channel @1086158538 housel: OK, if I've got a native C lib I want to use, how straightforward is it to use it in Dylan? @1086158931 commit by cgay to libraries: Directory /var/lib/cvs/libraries/koala/sources/koala-app/config added to the repository @1086159627 commit by cgay to libraries: job: 7010 @1086159627 Checkpointing basic virtual host support. @1086160060 badon: digest the .h file with melange and use the resulting module definition. (assuming you are working with d2c) @1086160084 k @1086160107 badon: you might want to look into melange invocations in the d2c CVS tree @1086160203 instances where d2c is using C libs? @1086160281 runtime/time I think @1086160339 find . -name GNUMakefile -print -exec grep melange {} \; @1086160393 [gabor!root@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION goes in working mode. will check back regularlz @1086160417 y @1086164441 -calvino.freenode.net- brucehoult (~bruce@202-0-60-121.adsl.paradise.net.nz) joined the channel @1086164919 hi bruce @1086164930 re Gabor @1086164960 how is your new job? @1086164969 pretty good @1086164976 still finding my way around stuff... @1086164985 better than eserv? @1086165000 too early to say @1086165020 eserv was fine except that it was getting big enough to have serious politics @1086165063 MetService is a similar size organization, but the Weatherscape team is run as a seperate business @1086165160 It's nice having a Mac at work :-) @1086165270 are you ready for the weekend? @1086165334 6 pm - 6 pm should be quite convenient for you @1086165356 I'll be getting up for 4 am the first day, and then staying up until 4 am the last day... @1086165360 well, that's the plan, anyway @1086165843 I am ready, but I will be away for some hours (trying to drink as little beer as possible :-) @1086165871 well, as litle as possible is zero, which takes (in the limit) zero time @1086166108 interesting @1086166129 when did Orkut start showing multiple paths, each up to four links long, from yourself to other people? @1086166178 http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=325082930226142255 @1086166205 I get three paths, each thre links long, each going through totally different people @1086166332 no! Here;s someone who shows 3 paths, each with 6 links! @1086166364 http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=1779670136199289043 @1086166730 they discovered that a social network is a undirected cyclic graph :-) @1086166759 you think? @1086166822 ok maybe it is directed @1086166837 that guy is 7, 6 for me @1086166839 well, it is reflexive @1086166847 or, at least, Orkut's version is @1086166889 if they allowed, say, you to be a fan of someone without being a friend, then it would be directed @1086166944 try this one: http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=2568340466943934176 @1086166965 She's a singer, here in Wellington, but one of my shortest paths goes through Andreas! @1086167028 (so I expect yours will too) @1086167911 yeah, same here @1086167927 just one, or several paths? @1086168092 I also get several via KriXtina @1086168092 one @1086170394 Morning! @1086170402 hi @1086176837 -calvino.freenode.net- buggs^z (~noidentd@pD9E96B73.dip.t-dialin.net) joined the channel @1086181659 -calvino.freenode.net- badon (KC7YCL@skoubye.dsl.xmission.com) joined the channel @1086187861 -calvino.freenode.net- fincher (~fincher@kappa.cis.ohio-state.edu) joined the channel @1086192295 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1086194006 -dircproxy- You connected @1086194049 re @1086195034 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-2 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1086195339 -calvino.freenode.net- gabor (root@cantor.gwydiondylan.org) joined the channel @1086195375 re. @1086195397 hi gabor @1086195407 rehi @1086195423 [housel!housel@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION is working on the Jam-based build-system @1086195507 [gabor!root@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION is working on customer features @1086195531 [gabor!root@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION would *love* to work on d2c now @1086195669 my cross-compile of gcc 3.2.3 just finished, now I get to work on that again... @1086195683 -calvino.freenode.net- sprout (~Snak@drop242.drizzle.com) joined the channel @1086195708 gcc 3.4 seems to have quite a few regressions, at least on the ARM target @1086195724 housel: why 3.2.3? There is 3.3.4 by now @1086195746 I haven't tried 3.3 yet @1086195755 ok @1086197858 Re. @1086197868 hi andreas @1086197871 hi andreas, * @1086197885 Hi Peter, Hannes. @1086198038 BTW: the koala I've started on cantor is still running. About once a day, somebody accesses /plugins/hpjwja/help/about.hts :). @1086198425 HP Web JetAdmin? @1086198459 I guess there's an exploit for this device, and people are scanning... @1086203711 -calvino.freenode.net- rourea (~chatzilla@ACC5C4B8.ipt.aol.com) joined the channel @1086203859 -calvino.freenode.net- gabor_ (root@cantor.gwydiondylan.org) joined the channel @1086203864 re. @1086208117 [housel!housel@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION fills in "Dylan" as a write-in answer to "Which programming languages do you know/use, or plan to purchase within 12 months?" on the ACM Queue circulation survey @1086208718 housel: Excellent! @1086208721 re @1086208772 hi chris @1086208821 I'm still pondering what to do about the splash screen/About box @1086208902 One of Bob's album covers! @1086208915 perish the thought @1086208951 [cpage!~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] ACTION has been reading the Apple Dylan documentation for Creole; I think it's a little clearer than the Melange user guide. @1086208960 indeed @1086208991 it's nice to have a professional tech writing staff on hand... @1086209101 The documentation for Dylan and Apple Dylan may be the biggest contribution from Apple. More important than the implementation they produced. @1086209132 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@62.206.114.179) joined the channel @1086209464 I'm glad I spent the extra money (NT$2400 altogether) to buy the printed manuals... @1086209490 What was that in US$, roughly? @1086209546 $85 or so @1086209554 I have the printed docs, too, but I don't recall how much it was. @1086209577 (I had to pay for DHL and customs tax) @1086209731 Ah. @1086209795 I have to say, ever since "New Inside Mac", Apple docs have been my favorite to read. They have a very nice format and I think just the right amount of redundancy and verbosity. @1086209926 which was "New Inside Mac"? The version after the first? @1086210116 In the original series, they just added another volume for each major rev of the ROM/hardware. At some point, they completely revamped it into many volumes, partly to document all the new System 7 features. @1086210186 ah... so that was after my time (I haven't done any Mac programming since '91) @1086210222 Well, you should get back into it. It's much more fun now. :-) @1086210258 (oh, and I did NewtonScript in '93-'94) @1086210396 I think the formatting in the DRM is horrible. The way the headings are done makes it hard to find the definition names. @1086210438 i'll have to get out my apple dylan docs again... @1086210469 which kind of headings? @1086210510 i don't have it in front of me, but i know that my eyes are always drawn to the wrong place when looking for the doc for a specific class or function @1086210547 hmmm @1086210599 i think it's better online than in the book @1086211272 -calvino.freenode.net- badon (KC7YCL@skoubye.dsl.xmission.com) joined the channel @1086211310 In the TOC or on each page? @1086211625 hey chan @1086211685 hi prom @1086211807 [prom!~prom@217.13.206.33] ACTION tried to bootstrap FD from CVS using the last linux alpha as compiler, but it signalled "Out of memory". this didnt happen before with this machine (and it really shouldnt, with 2G real and 2G swap mem). @1086211879 hmmm... I think cgay had the same problem @1086211884 I'll look into it @1086211909 hm. the build process uses the static version of the systems installed libgc? @1086211940 no, I think it uses the gc.a found in fundev/Sources/lib/run-time/pentium-linux @1086212079 wow. and its pretty large compared to the system libgc.a. about 4 times as large. must be a debug version. @1086212124 [hannes!hannes@cantor.gwydiondylan.org] ACTION thinks he had the same problem, but couldn't reproduce it while running make again. it also only happened during bootstrapping with boehm-gc. @1086212154 Hmmm... the 20040526 FD Win installer doesn't work for me... complains about insufficient permissions. @1086212185 it worked for me as Administrator. or maybe even as a user in group "Administrators". dont remember. @1086212238 (Win2k AdvSrv EN MSDN) @1086212327 Must have been permissions on the file itself, for whatever reason. Maybe cygwin-caused. @1086212417 Install is happily proceeding now. @1086212419 [prom!~prom@217.13.206.33] ACTION always starts FD using the VS.Net command line because hes to lazy to figure out which environment variables have to be set for the VS stuff to work. @1086212468 andreas: you tried starting the installer from cygwin? @1086212498 I scrounged through VCVARS32.BAT and figured out which envars to set, then permanently set them from the System control planel @1086212503 panel @1086212509 No, I used the cygwin command line and ssh to transfer the file. @1086212601 andreas: eek. ;) @1086212627 If only the GNU linker was working... @1086212641 andreas: there is a set of VS.net CDs on sonic. @1086212683 soon... @1086212710 andreas: and you can download the vs.net compiler and linker from microsoft... but thats not enough for most apps because the resource compiler is missing. @1086212733 and the linker, and nmake, and ... @1086212830 btw... i almost succeeded building GD with icc. ill finish that when i have time or somebody needs it. icc really generates better code in many situations. @1086213672 cpage: i was talking about in each page, not the TOC (if you were asking me) @1086213837 so, e.g., on the page with "sorted-applicable-methods" on the left and "[Function]" on the right, the function name isn't obvious enough? @1086214000 right. it has to do with font sizes and the placement of that separator line @1086214031 the name of the method is even smaller than the Description: subheader from the def above it @1086214117 and the separator line is placed so that it looks like the sorted-applicable-methods header is part of the previous section @1086214173 anyone seen the update to the icfp page? @1086214182 http://www.icfpcontest.org @1086214191 Now I have. @1086214215 I remember a while ago seeing a picture of what seemed to be a gigantic desert with some figures moving along it. @1086214226 (but it was too vague for me to be certain that that's what it depicted) @1086214263 please, not another A* exercise... @1086214325 at least last year you had to deal with serious momentum issues making the state space intractable @1086215730 is this good news or bad news? - http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/groups/icfpcontest/proclamation.html @1086215738 What's the dylan people's take on it? @1086215758 It's the last link from here - http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/groups/icfpcontest/proclamation.html @1086215773 We'll beat them this year. @1086215808 The awards are in Snowbird, Utah...I'll try to attend if the Dylan people win @1086215814 I live in Utah @1086215885 A pity: you'll miss it when the #scheme team wins, then. @1086215891 [Riastradh!~riastradh@pool-141-154-52-5.bos.east.verizon.net] ACTION ducks. @1086216101 [badon!KC7YCL@skoubye.dsl.xmission.com] ACTION is examining scheme as well as dylan - He's already decided ruby rocks. @1086216148 I absolutely loathe the mess they've made in Ruby with incompatibly differentiating blocks, methods, and procedure objects. @1086216191 Yeah, isn't that s'posed to be addressed in ruby rite? @1086216195 ruby 2 @1086216199 or whatever they call it? @1086216214 I don't know. I stopped paying attention to Ruby a while ago. @1086216250 oh? why? @1086216269 Good luck to the Scheme team .. but the Dylan team has a track record @1086216311 badon, it's not very interesting to me. It's yet another overly-Smalltalk-style-OO Perl replacement. @1086216317 .. and we're tanned, relaxed, and ready @1086216336 I'm not sure I'm relaxed & ready...I've been ailed by strange symptoms over the past couple days. @1086216390 I hope they're gone by Friday. @1086216397 -calvino.freenode.net- rourea (~chatzilla@ACC0E322.ipt.aol.com) joined the channel @1086216433 heh. I just googled for that phrase ... amazing how many people have used it @1086216452 Riastradh: hmm...it seems to be a good deal better than perl...with a bit of a lead of python too @1086216461 over python, rather @1086216482 bhoult, the phrase I used about Ruby? @1086216485 python is asymmetric @1086216494 badon, sure, but that doesn't make it very interesting. @1086216519 [bhoult!~Bruce_Hou@metnet.met.co.nz] ACTION thinks Ruby is better than either Perl or Python, if that's the sort of language yo uwant to use for a task @1086216532 I can do any scripting I like much more pleasantly in Scheme anyways. @1086216547 i.e. low performance (except for intrinsics such as REs and hashes), fast turn-around, and very dynamic @1086216580 Riastradh: well, beyond 'scripting' though... @1086216596 I can't. I've used Scheme quite a lot, and even prefix Dylan is a *big* advance on it @1086216607 wish the ocaml guys would cleanup their methods to be like functions @1086216617 Oh, I don't mean pure R5RS Scheme, bhoult. @1086216690 what kind of language would you guys like to see in the base of an OS @1086216702 Dyan, doh! @1086216705 er "Dylan" @1086216724 bhoult, thought more of a scripting like language @1086216736 dylan seems so heavy to me @1086216753 heavy in what way? @1086216756 sorry if i'm ignorant @1086216774 dunno getting a sysadmin to use it @1086216782 typing "define method" instead of "def" ? @1086216788 or "fn" @1086216810 bhoult, do you write scripts in dylan ? @1086216819 the cmpile time alone e.g. @1086216825 not at the moment, no @1086216830 buggs, that's a deficiency of Dylan implementations. @1086216844 compile time is 3 seconds for helloworld on my current home PC @1086216857 I expect to cut that to under two seconds soon @1086216893 and also keep in mind you want a real stable language @1086216900 (and implementation) @1086216914 Dylan the language hasn't changed much in nearly a decade, has it? @1086216939 ya i dylan's case it's more the implementation @1086216941 right @1086216979 the original Dylan design is very good. It's just taken a while to implement it. @1086216985 If I had to choose an existing Lisp implementation to base an OS on, I'd choose T. @1086217001 T is so 1984 @1086217041 housel, nah, it extended out to at _least_ 1986, come on! @1086217080 (it really stayed alive as a general-purpose Lisp implementation project until about 1989, and derivations of it were still used by David Kranz until 1997) @1086217102 isn't haskell based on it @1086217108 Er, no. @1086217400 why not write an OS in dylan? starting with GD, switching to FD when that becomes fully usable... i actually kinda like andreas' dylan-on-l4 idea. @1086217461 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@pD9E7A7B2.dip.t-dialin.net) joined the channel @1086217467 i was more looking for something to replace perl on unix @1086217475 "T - 1. True. A Lisp compiler by Johnathan A. Rees in 1982 at Yale University. T has static scope and is a near-superset of Scheme. Unix source is available. T is written in itself and compiles to efficient native code. Used as the basis for the Yale Haskell system. Maintained by David Kranz . @1086217475 " @1086217560 buggs: well... one of the larger scheme implementations might do it. dylan cant really replace perl because there are not many libraries. @1086217588 that's an issue of someone writing more libraries, not of the langauge! @1086217627 bhoult: yeah, of course it is. but library availability is something one should think about when using a language... @1086217627 buggs, most likely, GHC was originally written in T, but the bootstrapping process has long since eliminated any traces of it. @1086217647 Dylan has more libraries than Common Lisp does, and CLers get along just fine @1086217671 na libraries are not so important in my case i think @1086217701 but e.g. 3 hours + compile the compiler would matter ;) @1086217724 CL? more libraries than dylan? i wouldnt say that. @1086217767 I didn't say that... @1086217778 the other way round of course.... dylan doesnt have more libraries than CL. at least if it has, i havent seen them. @1086217804 FD has a lot of libraries. but most of them cant be used on linux right now. with CL, its apt-get install. @1086217951 i also know a lot more people using cl than dylan. @1086218131 housel: since when does dylan have more libraries than CL? @1086218146 I haven't seen that; there's a lot of activity in the CL community these days @1086218164 maybe I'm exaggerating slightly @1086218173 the activity actually seemes to be increasing.... @1086218183 indeed @1086218202 my point is that they're on the same order of magnitude @1086218243 housel: FD has a lot of interesting libraries and really could make dylan a lot more everyday-compatible, but its just not usable right now except on windows. @1086218287 true enough, but not too hard to fix @1086218288 housel: yes. still. but not very close. this might be more true when counting functionality. @1086218306 housel: with lisp you can often choose from several implementations. @1086218427 of course, all i say is not counting commercial dylan and lisp code. there is a LOT of commercial CL out there. @1086218435 naturally @1086218451 I'm just counting cliki-worthy stuff @1086218615 -calvino.freenode.net- badon (KC7YCL@skoubye.dsl.xmission.com) joined the channel @1086218758 "but e.g. 3 hours + compile the compiler would matter ;)" @1086218760 why? @1086218771 How often do most people have to build the compiler? @1086218808 3 hours is for a Mindy bootstrap, which should be very rare. @1086218833 And it's under 2 hours on my current x86 machine, anyway (under 2.5 on the Mac) @1086218858 But if you already have *some* version of d2c then it's 15 min to bootstrap a new version @1086218902 which should only be a once or twice a year thing for most people @1086218921 build speed is an issue for people working on the compiler .. but for everyone else? @1086218942 it's faster to build d2c than it is to build a new version of gcc, for example @1086218961 bhoult: i guess normal developers wont care how long the compiler needs for building itself. @1086218979 bhoult: building gd is also a lot easier than building, for example, a cross-gcc. @1086219036 or even a native one if you want to do it right ;) @1086219094 and debugging the generated c code is also ok... just not in Ăthe compiler with huge call chains. @1086219244 Is there a working interactive interpreter yet? @1086219265 there is in FunDev on Win32 @1086219278 I meant for gd. @1086219291 I don't think there's much point @1086219316 I'd rather see a goo (or sbcl) -style interactive compiler @1086219346 bhoult, if hour OS needs 5 hours instead of 2 hours for a full build @1086219347 FunDev is actually the same way... it compiles then downloads into the image currently being debugged @1086219350 *our @1086219351 By 'interactive interpreter' I wasn't forcing it to be a direct interpreter. @1086219364 If you insist, interactive evaluator. @1086219782 http://www.gwydiondylan.org/~housel/fd-dylan-playground.png @1086222900 i've been using the interactive stuff a lot for developing koala @1086223002 fundev still takes too long for a full compile of koala on my home machine (2.3GHz x86). koala's not very big and it takes between 30 seconds and a minute, i'd estimate @1086223187 Which compilation phase takes the longest? @1086223212 i think it was code gen, but not sure @1086223232 i'm using the gui so i haven't seen actual numbers @1086223332 [cgay!~cgay@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] ACTION heads home @1086224608 there is the fer evuluator which could be extended.... but thats not currently a full interpreter. @1086224648 evaluator even @1086225592 -calvino.freenode.net- cpage (~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined the channel @1086227556 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1086229471 -calvino.freenode.net- cgay_ (~cgay@h00a0c5e1f619.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined the channel @1086230576 -dircproxy- You connected @1086237851 excellent... my Jam script for duplicating build-system / linker-support works (using real Jam) @1086237867 now to finish my Jam implementation... @1086239935 with this experience you should be abel to do a jam-based build system for d2c in no time :-) @1086239959 sure, why not... @1086240209 though it's much less urgent, because d2c produces cc-*-files.mak and uses gnu make, rather than trying to implement its own build @1086244493 cpage: The first question in the FAQ was added based on your input, thanks a bunch. What do you think? - http://www.zesiger.com/license/ @1086246392 badon: Cool! @1086246410 I'll only charge a modest copyright licensing fee to use my question. :-) @1086246994 -calvino.freenode.net- oudeis (~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il) joined the channel @1086247459 -calvino.freenode.net- oudeis (~oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il) left the channel @1086247559 cpage: haha @1086247570 You asked it in public, I might add :P @1086247582 cpage: anyways, what do you think? @1086247605 cpage: I like the idea of arbitrators publishing their opinions publically @1086247627 It ensures that they get thoroughly ridiculed if they don't do things right. @1086247696 I think I could run a test case through the arbitration panel to see how well it comes out...I just won't tell the arbitrators it's only a test case :) @1086247746 Maybe come up with some kind of sticky situation, where two companies accidentally step on each other, but neither intended any harm. I'd be curious how the arbitrators would decide a case like that. @1086247790 Or, even more interesting, a case where two companies INTENTIONALLY step on each other, heh. @1086247802 Maybe toss in some usurped GPL code too @1086249232 "what do you think?" Could you be more specific? @1086249263 cgay: I just compared the printed DRM with the HTML version and I agree the HTML version is badly formatted. Is that what you mean? @1086249358 One thing that puzzles me about the HTML version: Why is there a set of links at the bottom of each page that point at entries on the same page? @1086249780 cpage: well, I'm looking for additional criticisms, if you have any more. @1086249840 I think what you have now looks fine. The next thing I'd be curious about is the details of the non-profit and its bylaws. @1086249927 yeah @1086249945 We won't know that until a committee gets together. @1086250031 Especially since the license itself is so subject to change, there have to be very clear and enforceable rules about what it takes to ratify a change, and they have to be carefully constructed to prevent a strongly-motivated entity from having undue influence, yet be attractive enough to those who may need changes to buy into using the license. @1086250041 I think it'll basically be just "...to uphold the intent of the license, to preserve the spirit of open source, without stifling the spirit of enterprise." @1086250126 I like to keep things simple. @1086250130 I think the rules of license change have to be very defensive, to prevent someone from intentionally violating that intent. @1086250137 yeah @1086250148 So, maybe publish an intent statement @1086250173 for now, it's basically just using the BSDL and GPL as guides...but that's part of the license, and it's changeable. @1086250196 The committee needs an intent statement that's not changeable. @1086250254 The intent of the GPL and BSDL aren't likely to change in order to satisfy anyone's whim concerning the Zesiger License. @1086250273 So, they may be good guides, and completely independent. @1086250325 Well, I think perhaps more importantly, you have to come up with rules for how the committee is composed -- who can get on and what does it take to get someone off -- and what are the rules operation of the committee? What prevents someone from subverting it? @1086250351 ...rules *of* operation... @1086250360 yeah....those may be merely intellectual issues...not sure. @1086250369 here's what I was thinking @1086250370 I think they're the most important legal issues. @1086250412 Since the license itself can be changed in any way at any time, there have to be very clear, legalistic rules about how and when it can change. @1086250447 The committee would be composed of LOTS of different people, basically as many people as wanted to be involved....but the arbitration panel would be just a select few, who's particular experience and expertise applies to whatever is being arbitrated...I was thinking the disputing parties could choose their arbitrators, like a jury selection. @1086250499 I dunno though, I'm going to hack away as much complexity as possible from this... @1086250526 I think the simplicity and mutability of the license itself simply pushes the complexity into the organization that manages it. @1086250528 I'm not sure if there's ever going to be a need for the intent to change. @1086250542 cpage: agreed, and good point. @1086250549 ...which may be a good thing, but I don't think you can get rid of complexity entirely. @1086250617 cpage: I may be overly optimistic, but I'm hoping that when someone looks to use something that's licensed under the Zesiger License, they step lightly and are polite and respectful...simply because they're basically at the mercy of those who came before them. @1086250634 So, I'm hoping that problems never need to be arbitrated @1086250643 that the parties involved solve it themselves. @1086250705 When you have a committee arbitrarily arbitrating, people can't look for loopholes and for ways to bend the rules, because arbitrators will sniff it out, and reject things like that. @1086250710 I think licensing exists only to protect those who use the license from the unfair. @1086250722 what? @1086250728 If everyone were reasonable, you wouldn't need licenses. @1086250737 hmm, not so. @1086250745 I think a license is pretty much a statement @1086250757 a statement of "this is how I want you to use this" @1086250768 At least, that's what the zesiger license is. @1086250783 And, probably, what all licenses should be @1086250806 But it's much more than that, because it's mutable at any time, and there are no clear, legally-enforceable limits on how it can change. @1086250842 If everyone were reasonable, there would be no licenses, no lawsuits, and no lawyers. ;-) @1086250847 cpage: yeah....it's ironic that that's kind of one of the major points of the license. @1086250865 That it not be legally enforceable...at least not without permission. @1086250880 The law is totally incompetent @1086250890 I don't want those weenies interpreting that license. @1086250925 Especially when you get into the international realm @1086250932 Well, as someone who once sued someone else, I think the law is fine, but juries can be unfair. @1086250947 yep. @1086250961 Here's my beef with law: @1086250977 It's a scapegoat for people who don't want to take responsibility. @1086250996 An arbitration committee is the same as a jury. Without clear limits on their behavior, the committee is subvertable. @1086251001 "the laws says this, I'm forced to rule this way even though everyone knows it's wrong" @1086251016 cpage: well, it's not subvertible @1086251030 At least not as long as I'm alive. @1086251051 And, once I die, someone else will take my place. @1086251054 And @1086251061 I won't use a license that depends on one person. @1086251083 Well...lots of people use the GPL @1086251087 It depends on Stallman @1086251102 But, then again, it's legally enforceable @1086251111 Exactly. The GPL depends on several people. @1086251125 Stallman doesn't arbitrate license disputes. @1086251132 Here's what I was tihnking about: @1086251137 What if the license expired? @1086251137 And Stallman doesn't have the power to change the license. @1086251198 Well, I think a legally enforceable intent statement might be enough. @1086251203 One sentence. @1086251210 Simple. @1086251230 But, I still want one person to take responsibility if things go awry. @1086251259 If the license is abused by the COMMITTEE, the person who ALLOWED the committee to abuse it should be the one in court. @1086251364 The point of the committee is to get a broad set of opinions and minds, to ensure that no one assumes they know what's best without hearing what other peopel think first. @1086251458 Have to disconnect for a bit. @1086251460 Anyways, for now, there's no committee. We'll see what happens when there is one...I just hope they don't demand legalese. @1086251464 cpage: I'm going to bed @1086251471 nite @1086251472 G'night. @1086252058 -calvino.freenode.net- cpage_ (~Chris@charger.intuit.com) joined the channel @1086256528 Morning! @1086256681 Evening! @1086257205 Hi Chris! @1086257475 Hi Andreas! @1086257569 -calvino.freenode.net- gabor (root@cantor.gwydiondylan.org) joined the channel @1086257591 re. @1086257800 -calvino.freenode.net- cpage__ (~Chris@adsl-67-118-119-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined the channel @1086258001 hi chris! @1086258294 Hi Gabor! @1086260303 Hi Gabor! @1086261229 commit by alexpotanin to examples: Job: icfp @1086261232 File with full machine list. @1086262679 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove (~pritlove@port-212-202-175-14.dynamic.qsc.de) joined the channel @1086263239 -calvino.freenode.net- buggs^z (~noidentd@pD9E9785B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined the channel @1086263508 -calvino.freenode.net- Yurik-- (~yrashk@brig.emict.com.ua) joined the channel @1086265404 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove_ (~pritlove@port-212-202-175-14.dynamic.qsc.de) joined the channel @1086266821 -calvino.freenode.net- brucehoult (~bruce@202-0-61-41.adsl.paradise.net.nz) joined the channel @1086267506 cpage: no, i meant the HTML is better than the printed DRM. i looked at the printed version again and one thing that makes it worse is that the subheaders are outdented. this on top of the fact that they're a bigger font than the major headings makes it hard to read. @1086267534 They're not bigger in my printed version. Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing. @1086267662 You mean, e.g., "Signature:", "Arguments:"? They're definitely heavier than they need to be, but they're a smaller point size than the binding names. @1086267709 At least as I view it, the HTML version has a whackier mix of font sizes and indenting/alignment, making it harder to spot the binding names. @1086267769 they looks like the same size as the binding names to me, and they're bold where's the binding names are plain @1086267779 where's -> whereas @1086267810 i'm looking at page 262 @1086267831 "pair"? @1086267837 yes @1086267851 ah. class names are bold, but still indented from "Superclasses:" etc @1086267859 it's just plain weird. @1086267863 The word "pair" is a larger point size than the word "Signature:". @1086267864 i've seen much better @1086267884 Class names aren't bold in my printed copy of the DRM. @1086267896 Oh, do you mean "[Function]"? @1086267898 page 203 @1086267972 i can't see any significant difference between the sizes of the fonts @1086268012 Well, assuming we're looking at the same version, you'll just have to trust me on the point size. I spent some time working at Adobe on PostScript. :-) @1086268033 But if you don't notice the difference, that's all that matter to you. @1086268061 the main thing i notice is that the bold stands out more. and the outdenting. @1086268077 Yeah, that's whacky that classes are bold but functions aren't. Macro names are also bold (e.g., page 374.) @1086268109 I'm going to go with the theory that it was an oversight or printing error. @1086268136 i actually think the style of the book is quite nice, but when it comes to finding things in it it's not as good @1086268175 Well, there's an index. :-) @1086268192 Mine has about a dozen tabs attached to pages I refer to frequently. @1086268252 If there were going to be a second edition, I'd vote for black markers on the page edges (whatever they're called), to make it easier to find sections. @1086268300 yes @1086268311 or as we say these days: +1 @1086268324 inc!(x) @1086273014 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-7 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1086273235 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-7 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1086276338 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-2 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1086276681 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-2 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1086278883 -dircproxy- You disconnected @1086278896 -calvino.freenode.net- Yurik- (~yrashk@brig.emict.com.ua) joined the channel @1086281988 -dircproxy- You connected @1086282022 re @1086282035 hi peter @1086282496 -calvino.freenode.net- sprout (~Snak@drop242.drizzle.com) joined the channel @1086287927 -calvino.freenode.net- CIA-6 (micah@hyperreal.info) joined the channel @1086289888 argh. i think my build is going to die on Bootstrap.1 this time @1086289934 nope, just a GC warning but continued to Bootstrap.2 @1086290226 died in Bootstrap.2 trying to reference dylan_wrapper_check. i had a modified version of mmdw.a lying around so trying again with checked in version. @1086290275 -calvino.freenode.net- Yurik (~yrashk@brig.emict.com.ua) joined the channel @1086290740 Building dylan... /cgay/dylan/gwydion/fundev/build-out/Bootstrap.2/lib/runtime/x86-linux-collector.o: In function `dylan_check': @1086290741 collect2: ld returned 1 exit status @1086290840 hmm. the only local mods i have are in Sources/lib/run-time/pentium-linux/x86-linux-exceptions.c, to ignore SIGPIPE for koala @1086291801 [cgay!~cgay@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] ACTION is so confused @1086291996 it looks like dylan_wrapper_check should be defined in mmdw.a, and it looks like it is, but it's not being found @1086294443 hmmm @1086297210 -calvino.freenode.net- pritlove_ (~pritlove@port-212-202-175-14.dynamic.qsc.de) joined the channel @1086299800 commit by housel to fundev: Job: minor @1086299800 Fix an annoying grammar error. @1086300090 of course "grammatical error" is what I meant :-) @1086300292 -calvino.freenode.net- rourea (~chatzilla@ACC10EB4.ipt.aol.com) joined the channel @1086301666 -calvino.freenode.net- jemfinch (~jfincher@dhcp065-024-075-056.columbus.rr.com) joined the channel @1086301697 is there anyone here who can explain the "monotonic" class precedence list in Dylan to a mere mortal such as myself? @1086301703 I try to read the paper and it doesn't make much sense to me. @1086302454 jemfinch: looks like the guru's are sleepin' or workin' @1086302495 that appears to be the case. @1086302500 oh well. I'll give the paper another crack tonight. @1086302517 I'm designing another dialect of Lisp, and I'm debating the single/multiple inheritance issue. @1086303113 re @1086303121 howdy, prom. @1086303306 *sigh* the MPS would be just great if larger parts of the documentation would be public. @1086303406 prom: I assume you know about http://www.gwydiondylan.org/~housel/req.dylan.txt @1086303445 housel: oh thanks. i didnt until now. @1086303545 housel: but its still just a part... a lot of the references in the documetation and comments go to nirvana. @1086303797 tinderbox is once again out of control with multiple jobs bogging down the machine and filling the disk with failure messages @1086303808 we're down to under a GB of free disk again @1086303848 that will never do for contest time... best to shut off tinderbox entirely I think @1086303894 do you know how? @1086303987 no, not exactly @1086304023 load average 16 @1086304097 ps axl | grep tinder | awk '{print $2}' | xargs kill @1086304105 or something like that should stop it for now @1086304125 yeah @1086304184 *sigh* this lsh is just plain unusable. its somehow messing up my terminal output. @1086304220 lsh doesn't send SIGWINCH, for one thing @1086304248 yeah. it also doesnt update utmp. @1086304308 and why are there so many running shells there? some users have over 20 idle shells. @1086304398 running? not zombies? @1086304402 *sigh* too bad the new box isnt there yet. @1086304414 what's the deal with a new box? @1086304416 housel: yepp. @1086304429 bhoult: it comes with a fresh debian installation. @1086304447 bhoult: just look at netstat -lnp @1086304450 what is it? where? why? @1086304454 bhoult: then at inetd.conf @1086304489 bhoult: andreas doesnt want to keep cantor. @1086304538 do we have a better alternative? @1086304540 bhoult: so well have to put GD somewhere else... with someone caring about the installation. @1086304564 bhoult: yes, the CCC sponsored some boxes for another project. we can give out account on one of them. @1086304569 accounts even. @1086304630 bhoult: it also has more storage nearby at a second box (with a 1.2TByte raw raid array). i guess itll be much more pleasant. @1086304687 also, there is someone caring about the setup there. which would be mostly me, but also a friend of mine... i think his nick on freenode was silenius. @1086304791 so it'llbe a shared box? @1086304796 there is only one problem: the box we can give out accounts on is a sun machine. but GD did run without problems. @1086304812 do we get root access? @1086304839 bhoult: only between GD and the other project. i guess all people have allready been in this chann